In this episode, Brett Snyder of Green Bench Companies sits down with host, Christina May, to challenge the idea that every business has one dramatic breakout moment. He shares how a trusted client opened the door to school construction, creating a new line of business during a difficult market. Along the way, they discuss customer-led pivots, growth through discomfort, better meeting leadership, and why small operational shifts often matter more than big, flashy moves.

Christina May:

Brett Snyder:
I was I go back to when she first introduced me the concept of, hey, what's your breakthrough out moment? My, my honest answer would have been we don't have a breakout moment. Like like we're even better yet, the way I view things, the way I think about things is we haven't hit our breakout moment yet, or we're gonna have our breakout moment of my breakout moments two weeks from now.

00;02;42;27 - 00;03;06;10
Unknown
Like, maybe it could be after this conversation that we have my breakout moment, right? Like. So I view it almost always in the I'm a very forward looking person. So I think there's always a better moment that's going to come. I think there's an optimist at heart, and I think it takes that to start multiple companies. Yeah. And do that like as you know, it's never an easy slog, especially the first year.

00;03;06;10 - 00;03;26;23
Unknown
And then, you know, it gets harder the second year and then it gets harder the third then hard of the fourth. So like right, you just you keep going. It does. It's a myth that it gets easier. Yeah. It's an absolute myth. I don't know anyone who believes that this started companies. So now like we're we're be approaching our 11th year with Green Bench in in May.

00;03;26;25 - 00;03;50;08
Unknown
So I think we've gotten here. So I think that moment is when I look back on the things that have changed, like we came out of ge ge, which is now JBG Smith, like, and we took our whole department with us when we started. So we pretty much had a runway, we had work, we had staff, and then you just had to create a business around that to kind of do it and then go out and get new clients and all that kind of stuff.

00;03;50;12 - 00;04;12;17
Unknown
But this time we were focused on retail and residential or mixed use of the two. Like we developed a lot of big mixed use properties. We understood that market, still love that market. But if I was just doing that kind of today when no residential was getting funding, like, you know, we're not building upon the changing the changes.

00;04;12;22 - 00;04;34;29
Unknown
And so as I look at that moment, it was probably we had a client who was a residential developer client. We have done a couple jobs with them. They were consistent client. If they were going to build something, we were going to do it all in that residential, moment. They called me one day and he said, Brett, I'm on a board of a school, private school in DC.

00;04;34;34 - 00;04;53;20
Unknown
I'm on the board. We're getting ready for a massive expansion. We we're not doing well with our current CRM, who kind of got us through pre-K and that kind of stuff. Would you guys come in? And because I think I trust you guys, and I just want you to interview and talk to the, you know, to the school about the process.

00;04;53;25 - 00;05;07;40
Unknown
And I was like, are you sure you want us? We don't have a school work we don't like. I don't have a staff that have, you know, you know, one staff from three years ago had done something for, you know, where they were. And we're like, I don't know what I don't know, I don't know what I don't know.

00;05;07;40 - 00;05;24;14
Unknown
Like, are you sure you want us? And he was like, Brett, you guys know how to build, right? Like, you guys know. You know how to take care of people. Are you having to take care of clients? Which is what I am. It's just it's different because it's now reporting to a board or reporting to people who don't know real estate.

00;05;24;25 - 00;05;44;23
Unknown
Right. Like, you know, all sudden you're explaining a little bit more. You're, walking them through the process and you're letting them know where the risks are because they're not like a developer who's done it a hundred times, 20 times or 30 times. And so we're like, okay, I think we could do that. Like, but it's a tweak a few things or get the right staff person.

00;05;44;28 - 00;06;19;09
Unknown
And so had the interview, got the job. The job was fantastic. It just turned out it was in the middle Covid like it was just it was like one of those things. It just it worked. And I think we're celebrating like so that was five years ago, right? Like we've now done six schools since then and kind of that education market, which I think as far as a moment, I don't know if it's breakthrough, but I'm glad I have those six jobs or I'm glad I, you know, I still have three active that are going on right now when apartment buildings aren't doing as well, you know, on some of these other markets that

00;06;19;09 - 00;06;40;41
Unknown
we were in, heavy are down right. I'm I'm thankful for the opportunity that we took the chance on it. Right. Like you kind of reached outside the comfort zone of our staff. You kind of pushed people to do something that they weren't used to doing, like, oh, all those things of those pressure points that exist every day. We did it at that moment.

00;06;40;45 - 00;06;58;14
Unknown
And so like, for lack of sitting here, you have nothing to talk about on a podcast because I would say we have no, you know, it's like like, you know, have a breakthrough moment. It's going to happen tomorrow. I think I would say that was at least a course defining. Now, do I want three new apartment buildings to start tomorrow?

00;06;58;16 - 00;07;20;19
Unknown
Sure, sure. Right. Well, we can go back and do that like all you know, the experience is there. All everything else is there. So like, I that's what I would use as my example. The just because it made us stretch in ways that I think takes the uncomfortableness, makes you grow. Oh, I love that. I think it enforces that.

00;07;20;19 - 00;07;51;59
Unknown
Right. But isn't that that life in general, like when we don't I, we always say like people won't in marketing, we won't pay for it unless it's painful. Yeah, right. But it's the same thing when I think when it comes to growth, if it's if there isn't a little, little pain there, you're not growing. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So it really created for you like this adjacent revenue opportunity that sometimes I think what's amazing about, you know, you talking about like schools that wasn't something you were evaluating.

00;07;52;04 - 00;08;18;31
Unknown
It came from a customer. Yeah. And sometimes the best things come from your customers. For us, it was the same thing. It was for us customers coming to us. And basically frustrated with we as an executive. I don't just give it to me what's working and what's not, and the data won't because my data is in all these different boxes and doesn't talk right.

00;08;18;36 - 00;08;36;37
Unknown
I'm constantly playing negotiator between what this person says versus that person says versus this spreadsheet says. But I know this is important, but I can't measure it. How can I actually get this to a place where I can just go, this is the source of truth, and we can just move forward because I'm exhausted. Yeah, that came from our customers, right.

00;08;36;42 - 00;08;59;12
Unknown
And we responded to that need. So I think to your point with, you know, just being this, yes, we always looking forward to the next moment. But I think, you know, having that we know where those pivot points are. We know where those points are where we're forced to grow. Yeah. Right. And you look back and then you go and we did we did it and our people did and our, you know, what our processes did.

00;08;59;12 - 00;09;27;43
Unknown
And like all of that got a little bit better that I think made us better owners reps, better construction managers better, better, a better team because you're forced to go through those moments. Right. So I think that's the I if I'm saying that moment, I think that's it. So yeah, and it's kind of to your point, I think the, the idea of we would go to meetings with clients and, and it kind of goes exactly where you're at.

00;09;27;48 - 00;09;41;42
Unknown
We go to your meeting in the morning, my partner and I, and we'd sit there and we would there be really smart people in the room because we thought we were just in meetings and stuff. Sometimes they'd be the smart people in the room to come up. If you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room.

00;09;41;42 - 00;10;05;28
Unknown
No, no, no. And and we we realize everyone else in the room smarter, like the great. They're they're in their silo. They're they're they're the best of the best. You know, some fabulous names of downtown, your DC architects that you're the top of their field. And, and we get to the end of the meeting. And this one day, it was this double meeting of we did it in the morning and we walked out the meeting and like, kind of nothing really happened, right?

00;10;05;30 - 00;10;25;48
Unknown
Like there was no like like follow up. I don't make sure people were on the same page. And then we walked into a meeting on the second part of the day, a whole different group of people, smarter people, you know, a boardroom of people that know their niche better than anyone. And again, we walked out thinking, I'm not sure they actually like I'm not sure what they're doing.

00;10;25;55 - 00;10;50;56
Unknown
Like I'm like, I'm not sure like like we we left the room saying, I'm not sure anyone is going to bring back to the next table, you know, to the next meeting. Anything different because there was no direction. So the following meeting, we were just like, we at the last five minutes, we're just like, what is happening? The same way we finally just said, can we five minutes like, do you know what he needs from you before the next meeting?

00;10;50;56 - 00;11;07;45
Unknown
So we don't sit here and have the same conversation again? And he's like, no, what does he need? And then let that guy talk it. It's like, oh, you need that? I, I wasn't working. So he would write that down and we're like, okay for you to get that, what do you need from them. Right. And they're like, oh I need this.

00;11;07;45 - 00;11;28;55
Unknown
Like okay. So like you get him, you know, like so it's just became this orchestra of like like so like play around the table of who needs what from whom to move anything forward. Or it's just going to be really smart people sitting in a room without direction and without kind of like knowing what that key stuff is that like, are we really looking at the right thing?

00;11;29;00 - 00;11;55;46
Unknown
Right? Are we really focused on how are we moving forward on these projects or how are we, you know, how are we getting to that next step? And it's just a lot of it's asking questions. Yes. And figuring out what that person needs. Like. And so we spend a lot of our time, especially with our young folks. Like, are you making sure everyone walks out of every meeting you have with that next thing, like with that, everyone has clear direction on what they're going to do.

00;11;55;46 - 00;12;15;39
Unknown
Before you all get sit down a room again and just talk. I think that alone is some of the best advice that you could give somebody, no matter what their age is. Yeah, because we have, I think, so many meetings where we're all in the meeting and then you get out of it and you're like, no one knows who who is.

00;12;15;44 - 00;12;34;30
Unknown
It's like Abbott and Costello in the worst way. And zoom has made it, I think, slightly worse. Yes. I think it's just like cuz you're distracted when you didn't hear someone say something because you're doing so. I used to yell, just maybe you got that text at the wrong moment. You know, you had to look at it, right?

00;12;34;30 - 00;12;58;27
Unknown
Like so I think zoom has made it a little bit harder. Yeah, I've just from a distract, especially on large zoom calls. I think that's a little bit harder. So I think you said to pay attention and make sure you're moving forward, that each of those moments, because you can lose weeks, you can lose months, you can lose a lot of money, you can lose money, like because of the weeks.

00;12;58;27 - 00;13;20;11
Unknown
In the months. Right? Like it. Just like it can evaporate. Evaporate quicker than you ever think. Just because you're not walking out of the room knowing exactly what everyone should be doing now. So and I think that's that's part of our job. Our job is to coordinate and, you know, make sure people are doing the right things. So anyway, yeah, that's a little bit of a side note I bet.

00;13;20;11 - 00;13;50;00
Unknown
But it is I think that's really important though for people is to understand, you know, it can be something large, like we didn't do school work and then suddenly we're in we're in that business just like ours. We weren't in the revenue operations business. And then suddenly we're in the revenue operations business or can be something as small as this is a small shift in how we approach meetings.

00;13;50;00 - 00;14;16;14
Unknown
This is a small shift in how we train our people in, you know, making sure that they know what the next step is because those little moments add up. Yeah. And I think maybe there's this misconception that, you know, it's always got to be big. Yeah, it doesn't have to be big. It's the I think it's the, the, the small incremental.

00;14;16;14 - 00;14;44;49
Unknown
Yes changes that you just slowly improve on every day. Like it's this, it's the small things that your people are doing that your client may not see at all. You know, kind of behind the scenes of pushing someone or corralling someone, like it's all those small details that your team has to understand, kind of like, what are the what are those things that just just nudge it like, yeah, just and I'm a big believer that you fail forward like, you know, like I, we talk about a lot.

00;14;44;49 - 00;15;13;21
Unknown
Like you have to get your people like, you can't be the person who holds it up. I'd rather have you make a bad decision that we can talk about than wait on me. Than you wait. If you're waiting, you know, in real estate and construction, you're you're you're losing. You're you're losing, you're falling behind. That's almost I think any industry sector like because I think it's universal, like so we talked about like fail forward like, yes, it might be a failure.

00;15;13;21 - 00;15;33;17
Unknown
Yes. We'll have a long conversation about how you got to that decision anyway. I mean, like whether it was the right decision or, you know, did you not have the right information. Right. You know, however that worked, but I'd much rather have that conversation with you than we haven't done anything in two weeks because I couldn't decide. How do you how do you.

00;15;33;30 - 00;15;50;17
Unknown
Good. So I think a lot of times what's really hard for teams is to feel comfortable with failure. Yeah. How do you how do you bring that back to your team and make them feel comfortable with? Okay. Yeah, I know it's going to come with a conversation, but I know I'm safe to make the decision. Yeah, I think one saying that out loud.

00;15;50;22 - 00;16;07;50
Unknown
You got it. You got to say it out loud and say I'd, I'd rather have you feel like I'd rather have you. And then we can talk about the why. And I think the other thing is you have to be willing to. I just had this conversation today and on a completely different matter of just like you have to be able to show your failures.

00;16;07;55 - 00;16;25;46
Unknown
Like I think you have to be able to walk through so they understand like they might look at you and say she's the owner of a business that's been around for 13 years. Like she's never failed right. Like like so are you saying or not I fail at something every day. Right. But are you saying enough showing them?

00;16;25;46 - 00;16;50;48
Unknown
Yeah. Listen, I was in this situation and this was a complete failure. When I look about. I was missing this piece of information I was missing. Like, my gut was off on this, like. Like. So I think you have to be able to show those vulnerabilities. To your people and to your team for them to be able to know that they can take the same risks, like, like we talked a lot about being entrepreneurial and we want our people to be entrepreneurial.

00;16;50;48 - 00;17;11;21
Unknown
Like if you have a great business idea we want to hear it. Because if that's where your passion lies or that's like, let's, let's do it, I'll help you set this up. Like we'll help you launch you know, but don't have a failure to launch just because you know you don't like. You think we might not want to hear the idea or like so we talk a lot about it, like we talk about it when we're interviewing people.

00;17;11;25 - 00;17;33;35
Unknown
Okay. So part of your interview process, like, I like I listen, I want people to have that edge of like like they're not quite settled. Right? Like they're not like, I want them a little bit on, hey, I could be doing more. Hey, like, you know, like it's it's what it's it's our mentality. We drove a lot internally that I'm not sure if this is a true HR practice.

00;17;33;40 - 00;17;45;54
Unknown
We like to hire a lot of kids out of like rural Pennsylvania. Okay. Because they I just want them working hard enough where they don't want to be sent back to rural Pennsylvania.

00;17;45;59 - 00;18;03;36
Unknown
I bet you that's where any. Okay. All right. That's where you're from. It could be so. But I'm sure for a lot of people, they could, like, flip that out and say, all right, well, it's not rural Pennsylvania for me, but it's like everywhere, right? It's it's wherever it is, it is that you don't want to go back to or no one wants to move back in with their parents.

00;18;03;38 - 00;18;20;34
Unknown
You don't. I'm a vegetarian. You don't want to move back into the basement of grandma's like, oh heck no. There's a long list of places you don't want to go back to. So it's having that edge I think of in the, you know, like talking about it like, so you're looking for that in the hiring process. Yeah. Yeah I think I think people have more drive that way.

00;18;20;43 - 00;18;39;12
Unknown
Oh, I agree with you. You got to have you got to know what motivates I want a little fear that's like well we don't we don't do anything uncomfortable. You don't move. It's just like we were talking about the beginning was like, if if you're not growing, if there's unless there's just a little bit of something, there has to be little pain, there has to be a little bit of fear.

00;18;39;16 - 00;19;04;42
Unknown
So we were talking about, you know, as leaders showing your failures, can you share a failure that, you know, not a bad batch beer. Yeah. But, can you share a failure that you use maybe as an example or maybe even some whatever you're comfortable with, something recent that you share with your team? Yeah, I think I see it in my team.

00;19;04;52 - 00;19;34;42
Unknown
And it's funny, like I had this conversation with someone, the other day who's at risk of losing their job and, and that kind of thing. And, and I and he said, like, there's a certain amount of fear, you know, and fear of failure and all that kind of stuff that goes with that as like and I said to him, I've said to my team, I've been at three companies that have closed their doors, not because of what I've done, not because of, but like the economy, the, oh, a real estate crash.

00;19;34;42 - 00;20;01;48
Unknown
The lot of people lost it on a lot of people. A lot of people have lost their jobs, including me, multiple times. And I'm here ten years of back of, you know, being a partner in a company, you know, ten years of owning a brewery, like, like, so like the all those things I think I think the biggest one I use is that of like, listen, this might not be here tomorrow, but, but only work on those things that you can control.

00;20;01;53 - 00;20;30;47
Unknown
I view the economy as weather. Yeah, right. It might happen. There's nothing I should worry about because it's not. I can't control it, I can't I can't change it I we're going to get ice. We're going to get ice. I can't do anything about that. You couldn't do anything about those things. Work on what you can control. Because at any moment you might lose your job or, you know, and I, I tell them all the time, that's why you need to have a network of people, right?

00;20;30;51 - 00;20;59;54
Unknown
Because who are you going to call? Who is your counsel? Who you know, who? Who are you going to when that call happens that were shutting down operations, who were you going to pick up the phone? Where are you picking the phone. So have that list. Have, you know, have the people around, you know, who they are and be able to call like in because they're not going to judge you like that, that, that group that, you know, they're not judging you because of the weather.

00;20;59;59 - 00;21;04;35
Unknown
No absolutely not. All right.

00;21;04;40 - 00;21;14;49
Unknown
I actually had one follow up question, though, okay, that I wanted to ask, just selfishly knowing that you've got a brewery situation.

00;21;14;55 - 00;21;39;00
Unknown
Yeah. You know, as the I'm not even good call it a side hustle. No, no, no, my wife runs it. I drink a lot of beer there, though. I can't wait to try it. Yes. So my question is, what have you learned in the brewery business that you have brought back into the construction business? A little bit on the sales and marketing side, I think, like I think we were very we are very comfortable.

00;21;39;00 - 00;21;58;58
Unknown
We're very comfortable. With Green Bench in that most of our clients are repeat clients. We've done work with them for years and years, like, we're like, it's a referral business based upon that, right? Like someone we work with gets a call from someone else and they say, who should I work with? And they say, Green Benson. That's all well and good.

00;21;59;03 - 00;22;26;30
Unknown
I think in the brewery business, like you get some business that way, but you're the money you're putting into marketing and can design and, get it on shelf and shelf space. And then just the tweak of this color versus that color and what's getting, you know, like, I think it's underappreciated a little bit in the real estate side, your, your segue into the choir over here, because I think you have to work at it.

00;22;26;34 - 00;22;48;04
Unknown
You do in a brewery situation like marketing matters, like, you know, getting it, it's tying it all together and construction like you could have a good business like. And this is kind of the opposite thinking of we've changed over the last couple of years is, being an owners rapper, construction management. We're always working for other people. Right.

00;22;48;04 - 00;23;25;20
Unknown
Like, so we have clients that they're getting the fanfare, they're getting their name right. Our business will be perfectly fine if it's never mentioned in the newspaper. Like, our job is to be behind the scenes and kind of off to the side and not not be the headline. And, you know, and we're fine with that. Where it is, I think, as I think the two things coincide a little bit as we're kind of starting to develop some of our own projects as we're involved with a general contractor now, you know, an affiliate like that has to get out there and work and put there, like, I think the brewery side of the business helps

00;23;25;25 - 00;23;46;23
Unknown
that side of the brain. Think of just like prepared me a little bit better for the oh, no, you you do want to have a can that sits on the shelf that catch your eye, because you can now walk down any beer store aisle and have 1200, 1500 cans sitting there. So what does your I go to and, and kind of how do we do that.

00;23;46;31 - 00;24;11;34
Unknown
Yep. That's perfect. So I think that I think that's a really great way to wrap up. Just the finding different way to, to look at different moments, both the big moments and the small moments. Perfect. So yeah, thank you for having me. Thank you for being here.