Growth can create new opportunities, but it can also make a business more complicated than it needs to be.
In this episode, Christina May sits down with Denny Woolley of Genesis AEC to talk about how the company has grown by building on what it already knows, listening to customers, and recognizing opportunities close to its core expertise. Denny shares how simplifying complex processes can help businesses move faster and control costs while still delivering what the customer needs.
Christina and Denny also explore the role of healthy debate in finding better solutions, how Genesis draws on experience across thousands of projects, and why context and creativity remain important as businesses begin using AI in their work. At the heart of the conversation is a lesson that applies well beyond architecture, engineering, and construction: growth does not always require reinventing the business. Sometimes the next opportunity is already there in what you know, what your team can do, and what your customers need.
Christina May: Denny, welcome to The Breakout Moment. We're excited to have you here today. We're excited to talk about Genesis AEC and not just about the company, but your journey there and what you've been able to accomplish with the company. So I'm really excited to have you on.
Denny Woolley: Well, appreciate the opportunity to share that.
CM: Awesome. So why don't you introduce Genesis AEC a little bit just from a high view? Because I don't think most of our listeners would know what you do and just how important you know, the things behind the scenes are. It’s the little things, right? It's the doors, it's the knobs. It's the water. It's the things we all take for granted. You guys kind of work in that behind the scenes space.
DW: So we do. And I thank you for introducing us the way you did Genesis AEC because there's the part that we kind of gloss over. Right. AEC architects, engineers and construction. Right. So the full gambit back there. And Genesis is a great place to work because we got great people. Got insightful young people, people with some maybe more high level or longer experience like myself after 40 years.
CM: Oh come on. You're young. We're all young at heart, right? Yes.
DW: But the idea being that there's a certain way to do engineering, and then sometimes you have to think outside the box, and you need to be creative, and you need to be able to listen to the other departments and the different perspectives. Right. We've all got our convictions and our backgrounds and our stories, but often we need to listen to the others as well. And that's where I think we grow. And I think that's where Genesis actually is, their breakout, that they keep functioning on different breakout aspects. Right. So 30 years, over 30,000 different labs, clean spaces, production facilities, especially in the life sciences.
It's an aspect of starting as engineers. So we're doing mechanical engineering. Mechanical engineering. When you're working with a client, they might have a question on the process engineering side. Well, if you don't have those people but the client is comfortable working with you, then they say, oh well could you work with someone? Could you find out this information for us?
And I think that that's how we we also branched out into having architects on the front end and having quality and commissioning people on the back end. That are clients come to us and they say, hey, how do I do this? How do I fit this piece of equipment in this space? Well, you need an architect to do that and help you out.
Yeah, but I don't know the right questions. Can you handle that for us? Well, sure. We understand the need because we've talked to them. We've listened to them. We've learned what's important from them. And then we communicate that we've worked with we work with architects. And then you get to a point where we say, well, why don't we just have architects on staff, right?
And then we can go to them and we have all these questions. And so you break out and you, you expand the way that you do things and you open your mind to be able to do something different. So architects on the front end and then quality commissioning is the last thing that happens in a life science project.
But let's try and expand it beyond just life sciences. Most companies manufacturing, they have some type of quality process. Something that they want to check before it goes out to the customer.
CM: Yeah. I think most people would would be able to understand that concept. Whereas maybe life sciences is a little harder for some of us to who aren't in the space to really you think of guys in lab coats and some magic happens back there, right?
But, you know, for us, manufacturing a manufacturing line, the goal is, is, you know, one widget looks like the other widget, regardless of what the widget is, right? Whether it's a vaccine or car or Frisbee.
DW: Yes.
CM:Right, right, right.
DW: But then you have that process that you're checking to make sure what? That it's what you promise the customer and what the customer expects to purchase from you.
So another aspect of Genesis’ breakout, I believe, is the ability for our people to sit and listen to the customers because everyone everyone's story is different. No matter what you're doing, you try and pigeonholed them into similar type categories. There's always something that's nuanced and different.
CM: Yes.
And we need to understand from those people. And when we can be silent and listen, truly listen to what they need, then I think that in of itself becomes the breakout moment, because what we have happened quite often is that our customers keep coming back to us.
Or recently, for instance, we have a new opportunity with a new client because the key individual is there came from another company that we'd already worked for. And was and he got the feeling that we had listened to him there. So he asked us to come join him at this new role that he has in this new company.
So it becomes an aspect of being able to listen to the customer. What is it that they want? Let's not try and make it overly perfect, but let's make it perfect for the client, right? From. And by listening to them, I think Genesis has the breakout to bring the different aspects of our staff together. And most recently and that's actually been ten years. But the process engineering department, which I'm a part of, has now been a part of Genesis.
CM: And talk a little bit about process engineering. Again, not everybody is in this that space, you know, from a high level. I mean, I think we understand, you know, engineering, architecture, construction, you know, those kind of things from a high level.
Talk to me about process engineering.
DW: So it's actually a question I get quite often.
CM: Back to school night. Right. Like what. What do you do?
DW: So Genesis actually divides process engineering, the true heart of a product process from process utilities engineering Which would be the utilities that are specifically dedicated to how the process is manufactured.
CM: Okay.Not to be a not to be an alphabet soup geek here, but process utilities…
DW: So for instance, you have an air conditioner I'll call it. An air handler for a production facility. The best analogy for the lamer would be an air conditioner. It gets chilled water. So for the building, you would supply chilled water from a chilled water compressor. A chilled water system. In the process space itself you would use processed chilled water. So different part of the system where the materials are made of cleaner materials. So that you try and maintain a cleaner environment, one that can be qualified so that when regulatory bodies like the FDA come in and evaluate, they are looking to make sure that you've mitigated all the possibilities for contaminants or other things to get into the system when you need to be in an ultra clean environment.
CM: Right. Which we need for a lot of things. I don't think people really realize, you know, it's not just vaccines, but food production for sure. Other things?
DW: Silicon wafer chips.
CM: Whoa. Okay. Who knew? Who knew?
DW: But process engineering. Just to answer the question that you had there. It is the study of liquid and air transfer okay. So when you want to make peanut butter.
CM: There we go. Now we're talking to the kindergarten class.
DW: We got a mix up the stuff in a tank. And you then have to transfer it from the tank. And maybe it needs to be heated. So it's got to go through a heat exchanger to end up in some type of filling machine. It's going to put it into the jars and they're going to the jars are going to screw the screw lid on.
CM: The jars have to be clean and sterilized, and nothing can be in the air that gets in there. While it's being filled. I always loved what that show,, how how things are made or how we made this or, you know, like when you have insomnia or something just to watch, like these production lines and, you know, things get filled.
And it was always, I don't know. Fascinating to me, just everyday stuff out. Actually, I think we totally take for granted all the process that's behind to make that work. And I think that's in general when it comes to business, we take kind of for granted all of you just see as the consumer or, you know, whether you're B2B or B2C, just the little top of the tip of the iceberg of the final thing, right?
But there's so much iceberg underneath the surface of how that actually got to you or me or how it got to our businesses.
DW: And I think that's our challenge in business. Right? All that part of the iceberg underneath. Right. You can make it really complicated, which becomes a lengthy process or an expensive process or both. Or you can find a way to simplify that. And of course the people who can simplify that get it to marker faster, less extensively but still satisfied what the customer is looking for has, has won the race.
Absolutely. Well, and I think maybe where that that has kind of gotten that idea has gotten maybe over generalized is that we have kind of environment where people are pushing to say like you're the same. Your use case is the same as somebody else's use case, right? It happens in our environment a lot too. So when we work in revenue operations and we're working with CRMs or data and data sets, people will say, well, like, oh, well, you organize it the same for this company as you do for this company, even if they're in the same industry. And it's like, absolutely, actually not. We don't do it exactly the same. We may have a framework, but to your point, listening to the customer and understanding where there's nuances need to be for that customer, because the way that they make peanut butter is different from the way that somebody else makes peanut butter. And that's what makes their peanut butter different and special from that person's peanut butter.
And you need to, I think not over engineer out what makes things unique and special. And maybe sometimes that's what we have a tendency to do. And maybe that's what Genesis has been able to keep that as part of the recipe, so to speak.
DW: A little bit of flexibility. Yeah, a little bit of flexibility. You want to make everybody happy all of the time.
CM: Doof now that's a promise.
DW:Not easy to do, right? But I think if you listen you have a better chance.
CM: Yes, you do. Or even if not making everybody happy. You know, we talk about because everything in life is kind of about the art of compromise, right? If we can all work towards the same goal, we might not get there how we thought we might get there, but if we all focus on it instead of we're all aligned on getting to the same place. Let's stop squabbling around the different opinions around how we think we should get there for whatever reason, and keep aligned on where we want to go, even if we're on the opposite sides of the table. Let's find a place where we agree that that's both of us, what we want, and then we can move forward.I think that's important.
DW: I agree.
CM: So getting back to some of the things that you talk about, these breakout moments lead to other breakout moments. And I think it's a common story for a lot of us where we find one thing and then we find adjacent opportunity, which it sounds like that's what's worked out. You know, in Genesis case where you find things that are adjacent to your point, like we would bring in architects that specialize in the space, and then suddenly you're like, well, why don't we just do that ourselves?
We have the knowledge. So you grow kind of organically in that way. So kind of thinking from that point of view. And as those kind of building blocks have built on top of each other. Have you guys also seen other opportunities in spaces that maybe, you know, several years ago that you would have never, never thought of because you've been able to expand what you do?
DW: So I think one of the ones that we're breaking out with right now could be considered to be an AI space.
CM: Okay. Everybody loves to talk about AI right now. So I'm going to bring up my AI buzzer a whole like it can't AI cannot be the only breakout moment. But yes, the talk about it though I want to I want to hear about how this being implemented in what you do.
DW: So people are looking for accuracy right.
CM: Accuracy in AI sometimes don’t go together in the same sentence.
DW: True, but can we make it in such a way where we can have our own crystal ball and be able to project things? As engineers, we pride ourselves on being able to work a slide rule. I'm sure I am showing my age.
CM: I don't see a pocket, though. You're good, I don't, I don't see a pocket with pens and a slide rule.
DW: That's because my kids said I needed to evolve.
CM: So yeah. Okay. All right.
DW: To the polo shirt. No. So we've got to be able to find a way so that we can have a better, more confident projection on what we expect the outcome to be of something that we're designing.
CM: Right, right. So predictive analysis,
DW: Predictive analysis, we can look at all kinds of different equations and what we expect. Then when you put them into reality sometimes it doesn't always work out that way.
CM: Imagine that.
DW: There is a model that's been around for a little while now, at least 4 or 5 years, but is now starting to gain some traction, called digital twin modeling. Right. And there are even of itself different aspects to digital twin modeling, right? You can do a digital twin model and a simple Excel spreadsheet. If you're good at programming Excel, you can make that spreadsheet a little more advanced so it can do some.
CM: Now you're talking my language.
DW: Projection sometimes and for simple concepts trying to get a project off the ground. What do we think is going to happen? This is a great environment to be in because it's quick. It gives you some reasonable assumptions that you can begin looking at. So that you can begin your journey right when you're on your journey. Now it comes into some accuracy aspects. And now we're getting into developing software programs.
So now we move from an aspect of simulation which is in the Excel environment into these software programs, which is more of a shadowing environment where you can see in real time what things are happening. Instead of hitting an Excel button and getting a static picture of the environment.
CM: It's a 2D basically situation. We got a bar graph, we got a pie chart, we got some data visualization.
DW: That’s a really good way to look at it Christina. You going from two day into more 3D. So in the 3D model now you can see things happening in real time. You can see how liquid gets transferred from one point to another. You can see a tank filling up, a tank emptying.
You can see what the time factor is when things are happening. So you can get a more precise feedback on what your projection is expected. And is it actually happening that way? And we've had the opportunity to do that for clients in this area so that we can model for them things that they need feedback on.
CM: Without and in the spaces that you work in. And it doesn't matter the size business that you are, any risk is a risk. Any investment is an investment? But your case we're talking lots of dollars.
DW: Lots of lots of dollars.
CM: So having tools that allow us to, you know, kind of to your point to have that crystal ball and the more accurate that it can become, you know, or close closer to reality, it can become without those investment dollars or fewer investment dollars, the more confident you feel about what you need to do.
Yes. And for all business owners, regardless if you're in manufacturing, life sciences doesn't matter. That is an important tool to be able to have. It is.
DW: But let me expand on that just a little. You need to have some type of vision of what you want to have happen at the end.
CM: Yes. So start with the end in mind.
DW: So and it might seem obvious, but frequently with our clients, they know what they want to do. But then it's okay in the three different sections that we've got and what we're designing for you. What's the relative cost that you're going to have to spend in your revenue stream? What is the cost of the first one? What is the cost of the second one?
What's the cost of the third one? So that we can know how much effort to put into each one. If there's a significant cost, you want to put some significant effort into it?
CM: Yes.
DW: If it's simple, then no. High level, quick and dirty.
CM: Yeah. Back in napkin. Let's figure it out. That still works.
DW: Yep. So? So that has been a more recent breakout, I would say, for Genesis.Is in that space to really look into that. And it expands into other aspects of Genesis’ portfolio and our asset management. Because we're trying to identify what assets you're going to need. And how are you going to make those assets useful. Because if they're being idle for whatever reason, they're not making any money.
CM: Not making any money. Exactly.
DW: Yeah. So bring those assets into the manufacturing process so that they are making your money that you need.
CM: Well, and I think that's where the creativity comes in, to be able to see something sitting idle and go, what can I do with that?
DW: Yes.
CM: And that is, you know, people talk a lot about forecasting and modeling before we had AI. Now that we have AI, it's a wonderful tool if you have context and two, your creativity.
Those are the two things you have to bring to the table. I believe.
That I don't know that AI will ever have.
Nope, nope. I don't think AI will ever have it. It really. That is what makes us unique. It's the experiences that we bring and you know it. You need to be able to look at the outputs and go, no, in this context, that's not correct.
And I know why because of my experience, etc., whatever. Or you may look an output and go, that's interesting, let me see what I can do with that. And that's where the creativity comes in. I think so the fact that you guys have been able to fold that in now. Talk to me a little bit though, because you are in really serious environments and we touched on a little bit.
A lot of us obviously have a relationship with AI where we're like, is that accurate or not? Of where is that coming from? How you guys mitigating, you know, what we're all dealing with with these tools?
DW: Well, that's where we're fortunate to have the experience that we do and that we have people with experience on staff, maybe in other environments, right, with other companies that can bring that to the table so that collectively we can evaluate things. I mean, strengthened team internally sometimes we have some really difficult discussions, right.
CM:Spirited debate. That's what we call it spirited debat.
DW:With colorful metaphors.
CM:That's okay. We like a good cuddle for a metaphor every once in a while.
DW: But and what I enjoy Genesis at the end. We know we've come out with a good solution and then we can look back and we can hi-five and and really help the client get to where it needs to be. So the key aspect is draw from the 30,000 different projects that we've got of what applies. And we might be in a manufacturing environment, but it might be the little lab project over here that we did that satisfies the big problem that we got on this multi-million dollar manufacturing facility.
So it's the ability to recognize that, the use of teams to just throw out something to the ether to a group of people and say, hey, does anyone have any background or knowledge about this? And variably, someone will jump in and say, yeah, we did such, such a project back in 20. Blah, blah blah. And this is what we came out and here I'll send you the link for it.
CM:And that, that creativity and collaboration is it's it always comes back into the environment, strength of team being in a safe place where people can contribute and feel safe to contribute. I think one of the biggest red flags that you can walk into is a whole bunch of people that just say, yes, if there isn't that spirited debate and some of that health, what I'll call healthy friction, it's forcing everybody to grow. We talk about sometimes internally about someone being a steak knife versus a butter knife. Right. Well, friction is what makes a knife like sharper.
It's very true.
CM:So it doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing. So it sounds like you guys have found a way to really tap into the strength of the talent and have a healthy conversation and healthy conflict to get to a really good place for the customer.
And by listening to the customer and staying focused on what the goal is.
And we know we're in a really good spot when the next project comes along. Yes. And we get together with the same people. We have the spirit be, you know, like remember last time. Tell me real quick before we wrap things up. Do you have an interesting story from one of these spirited debates that you guys have had that where, you didn't think something was going to work a certain way, and then you walk into you do a again, we'll just call them a spirited debate, and you come out with a solution that you didn't even, wasn't even in the back of, like, but it's the collective that really turned into something special.Put me on the spot.
DW:Yeah, it's a really great question. I can think of one we had recently where there were some members of the team that felt a certain way about evaluating how a purified water system was going to work. Right. And an instrument that was designed by the vendor and was called out as being in the wrong place, the wrong type.
And of course, everyone's got their opinion on, well, this is what we think it should be. And so I happen to be the member of staff that was on site and said, okay, let's try out these theories, right. And get another instrument in the location where it should be. And, and the feedback that we get, of course, it's the oh, I didn't realize that that's what was going to happen.
So some people had theorized, yes, some people theorized no, but at least were able to present it back to everyone in such a way that everyone can learn from it. And I think that's the most important thing. As I age on in the business. I think one of the strengths that those of us that are older have is that we're not afraid to be vulnerable.
CM: Oh my gosh, I you know what? If something has gone wrong, I have learned something. Yes, that's how I look at it now.I think when you're younger, you run from that, you're embarrassed or whatever. You always want to be right. I think it's just an inexperience in youth thing. Now it's like, oh, cool, I was wrong, I know exactly great, I know what to do now.
DW: Or pass that on to someone else. Who doesn't always take your advice? But then they learn to. But you know, after 40 years, my wife keeps saying to me. Hey, haven't you reached the point where you're ready to retire? And I say, I might have, but I love what I do.
CM: Yeah.
DW: So I want to keep doing it as long as I can keep doing it.
CM: I love that. I absolutely love that. Well, Denny, thank you so much for being on today and talking about Genesis, AEC and what you do and the different breakout moments that you guys have had. And I just think it's fascinating, regardless of how big or small, technical or non-technical you are.
We all, we all find the same, you know, commonalities and paths towards success. And it's so interesting to see how that transfers in different environments for different companies.
DW: So great to be with you. Christina. Thank you for having me.