From Cold Calls to Capitol Reform with Karen Barbour

Karen Barbour didn't learn leadership all at once.

Over the course of her career in surety bonding, she built a business, challenged expectations in a male-dominated industry, advocated for procurement reform, and served as a mentor to women entering the profession. Those experiences shaped the conversation she shares with Christina May in this episode of The Breakout Moment.

Together, they discuss confidence, mentorship, learning to ask for help, the pressure to "balance it all," and the question Karen still returns to when deciding whether something is worth fighting for: "How much do you hate injustice?"

Christina May: Well, Karen, welcome to The Breakout Moment.

Karen Barbour: Thank you.

CM: I am so excited to dive into this conversation with you. We've been talking a little bit ahead of the show, and you have had such an interesting journey. And you took a risk that I never have. So I cannot wait to dive into that. But tell us a little bit about your journey and your company, and we can kind of go from there.

KM: Sure. Well, it's a long journey because I'm old.

CM: Oh, you're not old.

KB: Oh, I am! Well, I'm getting there. So I started, as I wanted to be a spy. I majored in Cold War politics and Russian history at Loyola, and I loved it. I went to Russia, and I thought I would love to travel more. But in 1984, Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War. So no more spies. I didn't have the language skills that were needed. So, an injured football player. I ended up in the insurance industry and became one of the very few women underwriters for contracts on surety at the Home Office level in the country.

KB: I started with Fidelity and Deposit Company back in 1985. They were on Charles Street in Baltimore. And at the time, I was living in Baltimore, so I could walk to work. When you're young, you're poor. You can't afford a car, so you have to find businesses that you can walk to.

KB: But it worked out really well, and I loved it. And it's kind of being a spy, because when you underwrite, you get to know the contractors' financial history, their personal history, their spending habits, how much profit they make on the jobs, what jobs they are pursuing. You know who they want to hire, how they're going to scale their business, the kind of continuity plan they have for their company, and how they work, their internal cost accounting system.

KB: And you have to keep that all very private.

KB: Back then, there was no Privacy Act, but it was understood. You don't talk about anybody, right? And so I continued in that vein as an underwriter for a while. I stayed as an underwriter for about ten years, and then I, became a bonding agent, where I'm in outside sales.

KB: So, I have two cold call contractors, and no female was really cold calling at the time, and I was one of the first female bonding agents in the Mid-Atlantic area, and it it didn't get received well in my industry because my industry is predominantly white, male dominated and but, so I got a lot of pushback.

KB: And, it's okay if you're in their sandbox, but only on the outside.

CM: Yeah, yeah, you're not going to get invited.

KB: So there is a lot of, a lot of times where people try to damage me, and my business, but it worked out just fine. The last company I worked for said I lacked people skills.

KB: When I asked to be an owner of the company. So I decided, well, if that's the case, I'm going to start my own business. So I took all the clients and all the surety companies that supported those clients, and I started my own business in 2002. I really wanted to do it because I had some, I had small children, and I wanted to be more flexible and not give an employer an excuse as to why I can't show up for work.

KB: And I was also taking care of my father. He was living with me. I took care of him for about 12 years. But, I also wanted to do procurement reform, and you can't be legislatively active and put bills in session and lobby when somebody else is paying your paycheck.

KB: So I had free carte blanche now that I had my own business; that was a path that I took. And we got a lot of procurement reform done. In fact, when Governor Hogan, at the time when he was on his campaign trail, Senator Joe Gatti brought him into my office and said, could you help Larry Hogan win the campaign and be governor? I don't know what I could impart on him, but I could tell you what I would do if I wanted to be governor of Maryland, I would go after procurement reform.

KB: So I gave Larry Hogan all my notes on procurement reform. And sure enough, when he became governor, he says first attack was procurement reform. I met up with Senator Gatti later at in Annapolis, and he said, what you did for Larry Hogan was a big deal. And I'm, well, thank you.

KB: So, then those little bits of confidence along the way, of recognition, even as subtle as they are, are the best to propel you in the next step.

KB: Because once you step through the fear factor, it's always better on the other side. And then when you step through, and you get that encouragement, then you want the next level of fear to step through. It's like you're always trying to get to the next level.

KB: But life is difficult when you're young, and you get married, and you expect everything to be idyllic, it's not. I had a husband who was not from this country, and he left, my kids when they were ten and six, and financially no support. And, my oldest needed a brain operation. And I found out he canceled the health insurance for me.

KB: Doctor Carson did the surgery. He was not cheap. So paying out of pocket for health insurance and surgery was really difficult. But I told my clients, my key clients, about it, and they were very supportive.

KB: And they tried to get jobs funded for me to make more money. And they always called me to see how I was doing, and showed genuine concern. I like to play golf. So when you get that, that drive down the fairway, and it's just that feeling, Okay, I had a bad game. But this time, I got a really good drive in, and I want to come back.

KB: And so you get those hooks sometimes that say okay you're doing the right thing, stay on the path and you'll be okay. But it was tough. I had a father to take care of. I had two girls to take care of, and I was the sole source of income.

KB: And you really can't propel your business the way you want to.

CM: No, you can't. You absolutely can't. It's. I think there's this misconception out there that we get to just 100% focus on, almost like Oz behind the curtain. You walk in and you start planning out this, that, and these people come and hand you the things, it couldn’t be any farther from that. It's your personal life. It's what you're going through mentally. It's dealing with clients. It's dealing with all of that. I think sometimes those external challenges and the demand they make on our time make us more impactful with the time that we do have, because no one juggles things. Sorry, guys. No one juggles things better than a woman can because there are so many different facets. It's not one facet, it's a multifaceted thing that you're dealing with. I deal with aging parents. I deal with an aging grandmother, who's in her 90s, as a caretaker. It is unpaid labor that people don't talk about. It is unbelievable.

KB: My father got alzheimers and I had no idea what it was. I mean, no one really did back then, and it was 2008 when he passed.

CM: We're always prepared, I think, with that idea of what you were talking about, the husband, the family, etc. And everyone talks about that story. What we don't talk about is that later you're sandwiched with aging parents, family that's older, special needs, etc., things that come up in life, and you’re not prepared for it. You're absolutely not prepared.

KB: There’s no such thing as work-life balance. And I hate that when they put that on women or men, because that just makes it more stressful.

KB: I mean, what's wrong with me if I can't perfect work-life balance?

CM: There's nothing wrong with you. There's no such thing.

KB: There's no such thing. It doesn't exist. You have to live in utopia for work-life balance.

CM: And I think the reality of the situation is that it's not going to be this ideal routine where you wake up at this certain time. And I have my beautiful breakfast all laid out and everybody's fed and going off on time, and then you have time to get ready. What, no, emails start right away. I think every day's a little bit different. Sometimes you have a really busy day with a ton of meetings. You're having to work in the evenings. It's not; there is no balance. It's what you choose to focus and I think many people have said this, and I'm glad we're more transparent about it now than we used to be. But if my attention is in one place in my life, that definitely means I have dropped the ball somewhere else in my life because I cannot equally juggle all of them at the same time. And it takes learning to ask for help. It takes learning how to receive help. It takes understanding your own limitations and, quite frankly, that powerful word No, I think you can't do and be everywhere for everyone all at once.

KB: Yeah. That's true.

CM: It's very true.

KB: When I was married, my ex-husband, at the time, had a steel erection and metal fabrication company, and he was successful at that business, it was for ten years. We actually renovated the Washington Monument job. But I did a lot of work for him. From 9:00 to 2:00 in the morning. And after ten years, you start to hate the guy.

CM: Yeah, well, there's a quiet resentment, I think, that starts to build.

KB: I mean, no offense, and it may be that it's the era that I grew up in, but I wanted someone to kind of take care of me a little bit.

KB: Because my mom passed away when I was 11, and then I had a brother who died a year later, and my dad was a World War 2 vet. So he had not only had to deal with the memories of war, but also losing a wife and a son. So I kind of had to take care of my dad, and I have been in survival mode my whole life. So when I got married, I thought, oh, finally I have someone to help me, but that was a really wrong expectation. That was my expectation. And it took me a long time to realize that your own expectations do you in. They're the ones who create the disappointment. They're the ones that cheat you out of happiness.

KB: Because when those expectations fail you, you start to resent the person that you put them on, when that wasn't even their expectation at all. One of the life changes for me was, oh, gosh, I can’t remember it, but I attended it over the weekend, and it's been around since the 70s, and it was $700 for the weekend. I didn't like it at first, but by the end of that, I realized what I was doing my whole life was that whole expectations thing. And, I'm an enabler. And when you enable, I don't enable anymore, but you enable, then you become victimized, and then you become persecuted. And that trend was happening my whole life. And I was an enabler, and I had these expectations of people. Boy, are they an inhibitor of growth and success. You've got to get rid of those for anybody, male or female, if you want to be successful. It's not that you turn into a narcissist. No, but you just have to get smart about who you are internally, and you can't have personal growth if you put everything else externally on people.

CM: Correct. And I think where I, I so agree with you on that, but I think maybe we get in conflict too. You can't do everything yourself.

KB: Oh, yes, you can.

CM: No, you can't. Oh no, you can't.

KB: I know, but you tell yourself you can.

CM: You tell yourself you can. Right? AI now tells us we can do everything with AI, but none of that's true. You still need external people. And so it's the balance between those two. Especially if you are someone who is an enabler and you're running a team. That is CM: so difficult. And you have a unique story around that, too. You completely turned over your team.

KB: I turned it over, and it was very painful.

CM: In a short time period, actually. Well, it didn't feel short. Yeah. Oh gosh, I do that too. I think about things forever before I do them.

KB: I had a friend at the time, who had another agency that did what I did, and so I asked them, listen, could, if I get rid of my team, could we enter into a joint venture relationship, and I'll give you 50% of my commission if I can use your back office support.

KB: And that did not go well. And, some of the employees that I had kept were in the joint venture. So it was a populated joint venture, but I said, you can't steal my employees after this JB ends because it was only temporary. I needed to use their back office support until I could find good people to work for me.

KB: That blew up in my face. And, it was not good. So I had to terminate employees, and information got stolen. I believe, pirated. But that's just my opinion. But I discovered things that were not pretty, and this one person had worked for me for 14 years. Very disappointing. But a blessing.

KB: You don't realize at the time, but everything is a blessing, you just. You just don't see it. So now I understand that, because after he left, and after some other employees left. Because in the end, you've got to find people who believe in your possibilities. If you have to defend yourself at work for every idea that you have, if you have to micromanage people, if you have to question your employees over the simplest things, you don't have time for that.

CM: Preach, please.

KB: It's like that first time when you go to your second home. You don't think you're ever going to find a better home.

CM: And then you do.

KB: And then you do, and you can't wait to move in.

CM: Yep.

KB: And then all your old stuff is not going to work in that.

CM: No, and then you have to get new furniture. Yes, yes, yes.

KB: But I hate to equate people to furniture and new homes, but it's that kind of feeling, that kind of metamorphosis that comes over you. And, so I do have a new team, and now we're a family-run agency. My daughter works for my son-in-law and me, his brother, and soon his sister. And I have a friend who works for me who's kind of like a sister. She's been with me for 15 years. She's my chief growth officer. She's roughly my age. And, the nice thing about D is that she has her own business called Tri Solutions. And, she is a consultant, a primary consultant that manages the department for a mentor protege program for small and large businesses in the IT space.

KB: And now in the construction space.

CM: Wow.

KB: So it opens up a whole other side of my agency. And I told her any clients of mine who want to use that program. I don't want any money because I don't understand the program, and I don't have time to do it. So that's yours, that's a feeder for your business. So it works out really well for us.

KB: And she's very smart. So my clients like her, so everything is good there.

CM: That's wonderful.

KB: And we have now an office in Nashville, and I travel back and forth, and now I have a grandson, and he's a little mascot.

CM: There you go.

KB: He's a year old.

CM: He's already part of the program.

KB: Blond hair and blue eyes, kind of reddish hair and blue eyes, we’re kind of trying to scratch our heads on that one.

CM: So you went from your joint venture. Which joint ventures are their own? Each one is its own unique animal. And.

KB: I’m not doing that again.

CM: Yeah. Now, I'm sure there are very successful joint ventures out there.

KB: Yes, my clients have very successful joint ventures, but I can tell you some of them have been horrific.

CM: It's really difficult to find that just by talking about expectations.

KB: You just don't know people until money's involved.

CM: Correct. And that’s any relationship, any relationship.

KB: Including marriage.

CM: Yep. Agreed. So, looking back on that, if you were to restructure again or younger, what advice would you have given at that time? Maybe that you weren't ready for because you had to go through it all? But what advice would you give now, having the benefit of hindsight?

KB: I tell you, I took a DNA test, and I found out that the father that I was with, who I took care of, wasn't my real father.

CM: Oh, wow.

KB: He didn't know that my real father, who was a real father by DNA, was a neurosurgeon who worked with my mother.

KB: And, that that didn't change me. That, I always kind of knew, sadly, that I wasn't Italian. But I, I fell into it. But growing up, you kind of have imposter syndrome because you're pretending or trying to fit into a situation that you don't quite feel real. I hate to label things, but now that I understand where my cell memory is coming from, I feel more confident about who I am.

KB: But I am not angry at all. I mean im glad I'm here, and I'm glad I was born in the family that I have because they are the best family. I had a very loving childhood, and they love me today, so I'm not without that at all. I wish my three sisters would, embrace me that just talk to me, but they don't want anything to do with me. Isn't that a shame? I just feel like I'm not, I don't want to be lovey dovey, I just want to find out what my dad was like.

CM: Right.

KB: I want to see people who kind of look more like me. That's kind of weird.

CM: But I think we all want to see that.

KB: We all want to see that. Right? Its identity, but it doesn't happen for a lot of people. No. But growing up, if someone told me I was this really weird kid, I loved to garden. I mean, with a passion. And I had a quarter-acre garden when I was ten. And I love swimming pools for some reason. I love to be in swimming pools,

CM: Okay.

KB: And I love gardens and swimming pools, and I wanted to be in the medical field. I read Scientific American magazines, and I, I loved all of the data science. And I was like, where is it coming from? As a kid. So when I found out about my DNA and about the inconsistencies with my childhood, it all just came together for me.

CM: When was that? When did you find that out?

KB: I was 58 years old.

CM: Oh my gosh. It's amazing what happens, I think, in our 40s and our 50s.

KB: Well, I was in all these women's groups, and if you ever meet them, they'll tell you, for so long Karen would say, I know that this father is not my real father, but I don't know why I feel that way, It was one of the issues that we talked about in the group. And when I told them, they were like, no way. You were right.

CM: You were right all along. It tells you, though, sometimes, you need to trust your gut.

KB: You need to listen.

CM: You really need to listen to it. And, but you knew

KB: I knew, yeah. I don't know, weird things happened in my life, but I kind of like it.

CM: Well, it brings a different perspective.

KB: It's a good conversation over a drink.

CM: Oh, it absolutely is, absolutely.

KB: I’ve got a story for you.

CM: So you mentioned a women's group you are involved with. Well, I guess at this point now also mentoring as well, women, women leaders, talk a little bit about that, and especially, how that, we work and such, I don't want to say square but difficult industries, still to this day, and construction, the built environment, the we are manufacturing distributing on our side. It’s just that it's more rigid; it's difficult for us still to break in. So can you talk about your involvement with,, with women's group and mentoring future women leaders?

KB: Sure, sure. I just, before I do, I think it's important to say that people who want to be an entrepreneur or even an entrepreneur, right?

KB: You're highly intelligent people because you've got the determination to do something different. And when you get stuck on a wheel, and you're doing routine things, you can't stay on the wheel. You have to find outlets that are going to create a pocket of creativity for you. That's going to bring back momentum to your business. Right.

KB: So you have to go off the, the well-beaten path to find something unique to bring back. Right. So I was, I volunteered to be on the board of the Girl Scouts for about ten to 13 years. I won their distinguished women's award, and I was a Girl Scout with a gold star, and she was awesome.

KB: And, she had to shadow me for the day, and I can't let her see financial information. She'll be asleep in no time. And really, I can't share the financial information with her. So, at the time, I was getting a law passed in Annapolis, and it passed the first time in session. And I said, why don't you come with me to Annapolis. We'll make a day when I'm down there, and we can run up the halls, and I'll show you the underground tunnels that exist between the two buildings, and we can chase down politicians together. And she goes, great.

CM: I love that she chased down politicians.

KB: We did it and followed them in the tunnel. Senator. Delegate. No, we need you to sponsor this bill. And they did. And, having her with me, she got them to sponsor because.

CM: Yeah, well, they sell cookies, and they can sell anything.

KB: They're wholesome, so when they came to testify for the bill, that later that day, she was giving everybody the evil eye on the opposite side. So I was like, you go. But the great thing about it is that when the Girl Scouts needed a $500,000 grant, she was the one who testified for the bill because she knew the process. And they got there, they got their grant from her testimony.

KB: So hats off.

CM: That's amazing.

KB: Yeah. She's got kids now. She's all getting older. But, that was 2013. And then, I think, George Washington, I was in a program for women entrepreneurship. I mentored some women there. And then, I've been part of women construction owners and executives for about 13 years. I've been on the board for about ten years. And, I was on their executive board for a while, and now I'm their incoming president for July 1st.

CM: Yeah. July.

KB: And, we're starting an ambassadorship program where we want to bring about ten women in to mentor them and to get them on the board. The national board.

CM: That's amazing.

KB: So that program is going to be implemented this year.

CM: That's amazing.

KB: Yeah. And we're boosting up our nonprofit arm called the Resource Center. And we've got them a new website. We're getting a new website. I started a cocktail Zoom hour, let's see, in February and then in May. We're having another one in August.

KB: Anybody can join. You don't have to be a member. We prefer that women executives and owners are on the call, and they are; we had 65 represented, people registered in 18 to 20 states. And we collaborate, and women learn about their businesses, and then they do business with each other.

CM: That's wonderful.

KB: We're decision makers, so you don't have to go up the chain.

CM: But, and I think that's the thing, when we're all busy. Right. We've all established that we've got a million things going on. When you do give your time to projects and nonprofits, you go out to fill your own creative cup. But then, when it comes to things like networking, it is about being with other people who are like you, who are decision makers in the room. Otherwise, it's not a good use of time.

KB: It was really hard to network when I was going through all that with my kids.

CM: Yeah.

KB: And so I decided that I would embrace the politicians in my area and support them. I didn't really care what party they belonged to. I went to their breakfast meetings or lunch meetings, and I met people who had money and wanted to do business with me.

KB: And they were all during the day.

CM: And that worked for you.

It worked for me for a while. Yeah.

CM: Yeah, you have to find what works for you.

KB: And when a politician endorses you and introduces you to other groups, it's a big deal, because they could lose constituents over the wrong recommendation. So that was very nice that I got that experience.

CM: I have another, one more question. I want to dig into so many businesses, hesitate to get involved with advocacy of any kind when it comes to talking to their representatives, knowing how to frame what it is that they're asking for, being aware of what bills are actually in session, etc. What advice would you give to another business owner, who, I know, just feels like it's this, this mystery thing that they don't know how to crack into, and I also think gets a little shy when it comes to it, because there seems to be this mystery around advocating for a bill or what their needs are.

KB: It’s a fear.

CM: Yeah. It is, it's a, it is fear, for sure. But any advice that you would give on how to get how to start there?

KB: Well, how much do you hate injustice?

CM: That's a great way to put it.

KB: I hate injustice,

CM: That’s a great motivator.

KB: I was a young underwriter. I was walking home, saw a bunch of black guys in suits, and I thought they were going into the Belvedere Hotel, which was a movie hub, so I thought maybe it was a movie being shot. So I followed them into the conference room. Only white person, and there were only women there. And they said, are you a reporter? And I said, no, sir, I'm not a reporter. I'm just here to observe. I thought it was a movie set, but I knew they were contractors, and they were talking about how they wanted to increase the minority business goal from 7.5% to 12.5%.

KB: And one gentleman said, why increase it? We can't get funding support now at the level we are. And I raised my hand, and he said, yes, young lady. And I said, I'm a bond underwriter. What do you need? And they looked at me like you, you're a woman. I know, imagine that. And, so I said, I'll help you, we can start an education program. I'll tell you all you need to know. It's not rocket science. And they said, sweetheart, your firm is not going to embrace that. Sure enough, there was a meeting the next day about this, rally that happened at the Bellwether Hotel. And I'm like, what are you talking about?

KB: And, the CEO said, our general contractor is very upset about the minority business school being increased. So we told them to send them our way, and we'll find out. Decline them so you can get your waiver. So I resigned, I went to work at a branch level for a company, and I called up 300 agents that we had appointed with us.

KB: And I said, you won't have any minority firms, any women in small business firms. Yeah. Nobody will bond them. I'll bond every one of them. You send them my way. And we did. And we went from a tiny little branch office to, I think it was 1,000%. We increase the volume. I did that for nine years or something like that.

KB: And we had no losses. And then I thought, I can be more impactful as a bonding agent. And a lot of my competitors were not happy with that.

CM: Yeah.

KB: Yeah, yeah. So it's all right, I mean, you're there's no so you can't fail because if I failed as a bonding agent, who was going to hire me back, right?

KB: Right. But I got my master's degree before I did that, and I had a baby before I did that. And then, I went off running, and then I got pregnant again. But the good thing my boss at my one agency said it's a good thing you're not pregnant because you're having your best year ever.

CM: No.

And I was seven and a half months pregnant, it wasn’t showing. And then, at my eighth month, at a business meeting at the office, I said, well, I'll be seeing you guys. Because I gotta take a leave of absence in a month. Why? Well, I'm pregnant, and I’m due next month. And they're like, what a surprise.

CM: What a surprise.

KB: Soon as I said that, my stomach just went popcorn.

CM: So funny. Well, it is, it's just amazing.

KB: Well, that's why I hate injustice, these little barriers, they exist in the weeds, and nobody knows about surety bonding. And what a barrier it can be against certain groups of people.

CM: Yeah.

KB: And so in 2008, the SBA can back loans, but they also have bonds. And at the time, they could only back a bond up to 2 million.

CM: Yeah.

KB: And the average sales couldn't exceed 7 million for a firm. Well, who came up with that? So I went up with my lobbyist, and we went to Senator Cardin. He spent a whole Friday evening with us, one over everything, and he said, this is ridiculous. And I said, Senator Cardin, the service disabled vets, they're going to be sole source, work up to 5 million. How is that going to happen when their credit is usually not good enough?

CM: Right.

KB: To be bondable, you need the SBA program to support them. But that only goes up to 2 million. We need to increase it to at least 5 million so they can qualify for this. But on the federal government side, one so the federal government has these procurement vehicles called indefinite quantity contracts and multiple award task order contracts, and they will award the work on the basis of as little as an end work, to 5 or 7 contractors annually. But you need a bond capacity letter that says you qualify for at least 10 million annually.

KB: Well, who's going to give that to them? So he got it. And we increase the bonding capacity up to 10 million. We got an amendment to the stimulus act. It was on the Senate side, but the House didn't have it on, and it was going to pass in two minutes. And my lobbyist, Gil Jen, he runs down the steady Hoyer, and he goes steady, you've got to put this on the bill. He goes, is Cardin supporting it? He goes, yes, he goes, it's in the bill. So we passed, and we got the SBA to bond up to 10 million. That's amazing. It was amazing. It opened the door wide, and I had a breakfast meeting with all the DoD heads in DC, and I had other people there, and nobody would support me.

So I said we got to do it. And, my lobbyist said, it's going to cost you 60 grand. I said, I got 30,000 in my daughter's college education fund. I'll wager that he goes, I'll do it.

CM: Wow. So that's what we did.

CM: Sometimes it just takes working through it.

So all those vets got that work.

CM: All the vets got that work, and it comes from, to your point, how much do you hate injustice and how much does that motivate you? And what can you do with that? Yeah. I mean, there's multiple word task order contracts and IT quality in contracts. The federal government wanted to award those to small businesses, but they wanted one bond for all five years.

KB: In our industry, we don't do that because you can't forecast profitability on a small business beyond two years.

CM: No, you can't.

So we didn't want to give them a five-year bond. So I put a team together, and we talked to the GSA, the Federal Acquisition and Regulation Division of the GSA, General Services Administration, for the federal government.

KB: And we asked for a change in their regulation. And I said, please, could you do an annual bond or bond each task order? And they said, yes. So the far was changed.

CM: That's amazing.

KB: So the code was changed. And so now that opened the door wide for all small businesses to bid on those projects and get the bonding they need.

KB: So it's very weedy. And a lot of these procurement regs, nobody understands how inhibited they can be for small business minority firms and women, and small businesses.

CM: Oh, they have no idea. They have no idea. But It takes grit to get into it,

KB: Or being just naive

CM: And just even what, that is a superpower.

KB: It is a superpower.

CM: Being naive is a superpower. I think more people should lean into it. So we'll cap it at that.

KB: It is so fun making change.

CM: Yes, it is. Well, thank you so much for being on the show today.

KB: You’re welcome!

CM: I love your stories; they are not just breakout moments. They, as you said, make for a good drink too. Thank you so much.

KB: Oh, yeah, a good Manhattan.

CM: Yes, agreed.